You should see actually how little warranty covers it's rediculous. Even more so the extended warranty. Anything mechanical that goes after 5 years will come out of your pocket.
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Engine GDI valve carbon build up
- Thread starter Alby
- Start date
You should see actually how little warranty covers it's rediculous. Even more so the extended warranty. Anything mechanical that goes after 5 years will come out of your pocket.
Well then... Looks like it's gonna get modified after the warranty runs out (and probably be retrofitted to run on a natural gas/ethanol mix)
I hope others don't mind if I revive this thread. I thought it might be helpful to contribute my own understanding of the issue at hand.
The turbocharged, GDI Theta-II engine is also used in the Sonata and Sante Fe, and owners of these cars have been discussing intake valve deposit (IVD) issues quite extensively in their respective owner forums for a number of years.
These owners indicate that Hyundai are now using a combination of different methods to try and eliminate/minimise IVD in lieu of employing multipoint injection as most other manufacturers have done: (1) the intake valve is timed to open earlier during the exhaust stroke to heat the valve such that it can vaporise carbon deposits; (2) an amount of additional fuel is injected when the intake valve is open prior to the compression stroke to allow some mechanical cleansing of the valve; (3) the injector is positioned such that the spay pattern actively contacts the back of the valve when it is open.
Have these measures worked? It's difficult to tell as the reporting from most owners is non-systematic and inconsistent. There is also the issue of trying to differentiate legitimate cases of IVD with instances of poor maintenance: let's face it, prior to the i30N most people who purchased Hyundais were very unlikely to have any mechanical sympathy. I think there are still cases of IVD, but anecdotally it seems to be quite less prevalent.
Regarding the use of catch cans, there was a study presented on the causes of IVD using a Hyundai 2.4L Theta-II engine at the 2013 Japanese Petroleum Energy Centre (JPEC) conference. The study found that bypassing the PCR did not lead to an improvement in IVD formation and that blow-by gas is unlikely to be a significant factor in carbon deposition (with the implication that catch cans may have limited beneficial effect). The study did indicate that IVD was most likely caused by ageing oil and was associated with low engine loads, possibly because the temperature of the intake valve (when it opens earlier during the exhaust stroke) isn't sufficient to vaporise any carbon deposits.
The turbocharged, GDI Theta-II engine is also used in the Sonata and Sante Fe, and owners of these cars have been discussing intake valve deposit (IVD) issues quite extensively in their respective owner forums for a number of years.
These owners indicate that Hyundai are now using a combination of different methods to try and eliminate/minimise IVD in lieu of employing multipoint injection as most other manufacturers have done: (1) the intake valve is timed to open earlier during the exhaust stroke to heat the valve such that it can vaporise carbon deposits; (2) an amount of additional fuel is injected when the intake valve is open prior to the compression stroke to allow some mechanical cleansing of the valve; (3) the injector is positioned such that the spay pattern actively contacts the back of the valve when it is open.
Have these measures worked? It's difficult to tell as the reporting from most owners is non-systematic and inconsistent. There is also the issue of trying to differentiate legitimate cases of IVD with instances of poor maintenance: let's face it, prior to the i30N most people who purchased Hyundais were very unlikely to have any mechanical sympathy. I think there are still cases of IVD, but anecdotally it seems to be quite less prevalent.
Regarding the use of catch cans, there was a study presented on the causes of IVD using a Hyundai 2.4L Theta-II engine at the 2013 Japanese Petroleum Energy Centre (JPEC) conference. The study found that bypassing the PCR did not lead to an improvement in IVD formation and that blow-by gas is unlikely to be a significant factor in carbon deposition (with the implication that catch cans may have limited beneficial effect). The study did indicate that IVD was most likely caused by ageing oil and was associated with low engine loads, possibly because the temperature of the intake valve (when it opens earlier during the exhaust stroke) isn't sufficient to vaporise any carbon deposits.
so let's change the engine oil more often (~6-7k km) and drive your sporty car like it's supposed to be driven
there are also some additives / cleaners (even specific for the concrete automaker), but somehow I don't believe in their efficiency...
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4329375/Hyundai_GDI_-_Fuel_System_Clea
https://ssmperformanceparts.com.au/product/subaru-upper-engine-cleaner/
so let's change the engine oil more often (~6-7k km) and drive your sporty car like it's supposed to be driven
Absolutely! This is what I gather as well: be enthusiastic when driving and double up on your oil changes with a high quality synthetic.
From what I've read elsewhere, the Hyundai product is recommended only for their models that typically use low quality, high sulphur petrol. I would expect that most i30N owners would follow Hyundai's recommendation and use higher quality fuel, so I'm unsure whether using their "GDI Fuel System Cleaner" would lead to any benefit.
Aside from that, other fuel additives might help. Most of the objections to using these products in direct injection engines are based on the general assumption that injected fuel does not contact the face and fillet of the valve head. This doesn't necessarily apply to Hyundai's GDI engine as it varies the valve and injection timing as well as the injection direction to produce some contact between the fuel and the open valve. But I'm not confident enough to say that it will help.
I think one of the bigger issues is that intake valve cleaning - insofar as I know - isn't part of the standard maintenance schedule set by Hyundai, and the mechanically disinclined are likely to overlook any sluggishness and continue to drive their cars until the IVD tends to result in other, more significant issues (e.g. misfires). The best thing that i30N owners can do, I think, is to have some mechanical sympathy and be alert to any sluggishness at the 50,000 km mark, which is when carbon deposition (where it exists) tends to manifest itself more clearly.
Glad you revived this thread. I liked reading your thoughts and opinions on this subject. I guess we will have to wait for another year or two to see some i30N cars get to the 50k kilometres. Changing oil regularly and using premium oils was always on my radar at any rate. Performance car equals more care given to maintenance.
It would be nice if Hyundai just acknowledged the problem and offered valve blasting as part of the higher kilometre service. I heard VW offers it at the workshop if you ask for it.
It's clear to see just how much these engines must carbon up after I drove to work ( takes me 30 minutes) taking it really easy, I accelerated semi-hard when I got to work whilst looking in my rear vision mirror and almost blacked out the cars lights behind me.
Roger that.Glad you revived this thread. I liked reading your thoughts and opinions on this subject. I guess we will have to wait for another year or two to see some i30N cars get to the 50k kilometres. Changing oil regularly and using premium oils was always on my radar at any rate. Performance car equals more care given to maintenance.
I've had oil and filter changed at 1500km and just recently at 5000km. It will be given the same every 5000km for life. It is only $22 for a genuine parts filter and $70-ish for 5L of top-notch oil. $100 every 6 months or so is nothing, less than a decent meal for two and a couple of bottles of red at a restaurant.
Actually what you've stated is incorrect, at least for the US and Canada. The extended 10year/100K/120KM bumper to bumper warranty covers everything except the bumpers, including oil changes. They will do a comprehensive valve cleaning at 65K with this warranty. You can also have it done chemically with this service; https://www.bgprod.com/services/gasoline-fuel-services/platinum-fuel-system-service/ It's is also warranted by the manufacture.
Also the 10/100K powertrain warranty will cover the engine replacement in its entirety.
BG Products do a great job of cleaning intake and exhaust valves, especially along with their engine services. They have a direct system that cleans and service the entire system including duel rail;
https://www.bgprod.com/services/gasoline-fuel-services/gdi-fuelair-induction/
They offer many engine cleaning services which will keep the engine and powertrain in peak condition
Oil dilution is a problem with any GDI from any manufacturer but the Veloster N has Oil/Fuel dilution of less than 1.0% which is a trace. You can verify it by sending a sample of your oil to any Oil testing lab. Make sure you let them know to check for Fuel Dilution during the tests.
The key is to utilize; top grade oil, top tier fuel/fuel additives and change it regularly. Another is to do the preverbal "Italian Tune Up," on a regular basis. I'm not advocating excessive speed just hard accelerations up to speed limits or whatever you decided to do. The worst thing for the 2.0T Theta engine II or 1.6T Gamma II is to drive it in short stop and go traffic regularly.
I've seen many older GDI's on the street regularly still running in good nick and they've been used on the road for more than 20 years now. You don't see a rash of civil laws suits against manufacturers utilizing them either. So, it's not a problem.
This might work for the average owner on their dime but manufacturers will never utilize such a configuration, as it far too costly and maintenance intensive.
We've already seen members here, install CC (catch cans) and they've remove them almost as rapidly. Why, because it does little to catch such fuel/oil vapor and catches near nothing in the cans.
Multi-port fuel injection engine solves this problem and stays with in emission standards. Hyundai has a new multi-port fuel injection engine in a 1.6T configuration. They will be extending this engine configuration to all power plants in the near future.
The Multi-port engine is being released first in Korea.
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It's curious isn't it? The dealer needn't even resort to unnecessary disassembly and preparation for mechanical cleaning: a visual inspection using a borescope inserted into the intake manifold can be very helpful in determining the extent of carbon deposition. I'd encourage concerned owners with a sympathetic and clued up mechanic/dealer to have them carry out this procedure at the 30-50,000 km mark to see whether there's any cause for concern.
From what I've read, the general trend seems to be that most drivers with symptomatic engines persisted (either knowingly or simply unaware) with driving until their intake valves/manifold were so clogged with carbon deposits that their engines suffered catastrophic damage. These were then replaced under warranty. However, I have read of past instances where warranty replacements were denied in the US.
Here's an example of an Australian with a 2013 Veloster Turbo (mind you, it uses the Gamma GDI rather than the Theta-II GDI engine) whose engine failed at 60,000 km in 2017. Hyundai Australia variously (mis?)diagnosed the source issue, but several posters in the thread thought it was likely an excess of carbon deposits on the intake valves due to the frequency of misfires. His engine was replaced under warranty, but his car then suffered a transmission failure a week later, and so Hyundai replaced his entire car with a brand new 2017 model!
This is a definite bonus for US owners!
I haven't yet put an order down so I can't check our Australian service schedules, but a quick online perusal through some of the available manuals for other Hyundai Australia GDI engines doesn't suggest that valve cleaning is part of our routine servicing.
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Well Hyundai has a massive law suit against it in the US for 1.7 million defective engines and amounts to over $272 billion in replacement cost on Hyundai's dime, 1.6 and 2.0 2016-17 engines primarily.
However, this wasn't caused by carbon build up in the GDI. It was caused by poor engineering of engine blocks, which left metal behind that ended up in the bearings and eventually caused the failures. A Hyundai engineer, whistle blower testified to Congress and the NHTSA about the Hyundai hiding the problem.
You can have a similar service done in Australia or purchase the actual BG Induction/valve cleaning Kit and do it yourself.
https://www.bgprod.com/reference/kia-hyundai-1-6l-turbo-engines-video/
https://www.bgprod.com/services/gasoline-fuel-services/platinum-fuel-system-service/
https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-egr-service-tool/#bg-product-18
The system works as advertised and I had it done to my sons 2015 Kia Rio 1.6 Gamma. Notable marked difference and fuel economy improvement.
https://www.bgaustralia.com.au/
From 2011 thru 2015 the Hyundai Veloster 1.6T Gamma I engines, had sever problems with piston skirts breaking off, as well as piston failures. This contributed to most engine failures between 75K-95K miles.
However, this wasn't caused by carbon build up in the GDI. It was caused by poor engineering of engine blocks, which left metal behind that ended up in the bearings and eventually caused the failures. A Hyundai engineer, whistle blower testified to Congress and the NHTSA about the Hyundai hiding the problem.
You can have a similar service done in Australia or purchase the actual BG Induction/valve cleaning Kit and do it yourself.
https://www.bgprod.com/reference/kia-hyundai-1-6l-turbo-engines-video/
https://www.bgprod.com/services/gasoline-fuel-services/platinum-fuel-system-service/
https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-egr-service-tool/#bg-product-18
The system works as advertised and I had it done to my sons 2015 Kia Rio 1.6 Gamma. Notable marked difference and fuel economy improvement.
https://www.bgaustralia.com.au/
From 2011 thru 2015 the Hyundai Veloster 1.6T Gamma I engines, had sever problems with piston skirts breaking off, as well as piston failures. This contributed to most engine failures between 75K-95K miles.
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Thanks! I'll bookmark and keep it in mind. Note that in Australia, at least, routine servicing must be conducted by a licensed mechanic if an owner is to uphold their obligations under a manufacturer's warranty. So Aussie owners are likely hesitant to do this procedure themselves. Fortunately, there are several independent mechanics in my city that perform routine chemical and mechanical decarbonisation of GDI engines, mostly tailoring for VW and BMW enthusiasts.
But it would be nice if Hyundai Australia had some sort of inspection and repair procedure in place (aside from replacing the manifold and valves under warranty). I feel that most owners would be more comfortable if their dealership (rather than an independent service) undertook this sort of work as it would help to minimise any potential warranty headaches, especially given that the i30N is quite a new platform.
https://www.bgaustralia.com.au/ have a list of vendors and service technicians available. Most, US Hyundai service departments utilize this particular service. Maybe the same in Australia.
Depends upon two things primarily; if the tune is left stock and the engine isn’t being overboostered regularly.
Once you raise boost through tuning and are regularly running the engine at or near maximum boost @WOT, you’ll require one.Blow by increases with higher cylinder pressures, produced by more boost.
Personally, I’m utilizing a Forge Motorsport CC. It utilizes both PCV and CCV (high and low pressure sides) because I’m running considerably more boost.
The OEM valve cover provides some filtration and protection with its design.
Don’t tune it, have a GDI/FI Induction service accomplished every 15K miles and it will be fine.
Once you raise boost through tuning and are regularly running the engine at or near maximum boost @WOT, you’ll require one.Blow by increases with higher cylinder pressures, produced by more boost.
Personally, I’m utilizing a Forge Motorsport CC. It utilizes both PCV and CCV (high and low pressure sides) because I’m running considerably more boost.
The OEM valve cover provides some filtration and protection with its design.
Don’t tune it, have a GDI/FI Induction service accomplished every 15K miles and it will be fine.