Engine Catch can

[R Veloster N]

No offense intended but I observe quite well.

This discussion has gone somewhere for sure. It's right back to you proving what you're claiming.

lmao as you have again provided no outside evidence other than your word

Well I suppose you're just going to have to go and research my word. It's backed by over 4.5 decades of trained, practical mechanical experience. PM me, I'll be more than happy to tell you about my mechanical training and practical experience.

If you want to verify and refute as in a real debate, then you're just going to have to go research and learn. As of right now, most of your claims are merely speculation, without any viable or factual long term proof. How can I tell? Due to my own professional mechanical training, 4.5 decades of practical experience and your personal comments.

Frankly, as I comment before, it's more based upon your past experience with the VW you owned. Not with the new Hyundai VN 2.0T Theta II, which you have never owned in the past. How do I know this? You commented about it yourself and these are your specific comments;

What's the purpose of these BOVs? Is it just for the noise or they they fix some sort of issue?

Lmao I'd love to know this as well. In my experience so far coming from a MK7 GTI blow off valves were just for noise. These cars have diverter valves for a reason. I know New German Performance (tuner shop in the DC area in America) always told us that the stock diverter valves on the GTI's would handle any type of boost you could throw at them. Now with that being said and me being new and ignorant to the Hyundai Theta II engine platform I would love to know how strong/weak our diverter valves actually are. But until I hear they are particularly weak I will assume BOV are just for noise.

Truely, no offense intended but your own comments are bit dubious. This ^ isn't even, a layman's awareness or understanding, to be direct. You're not familiar with the basic principles and operation of a BOV?

l Like I've said multiple times I've actually worked for some of these major car corporations such as Ford and Toyota. I work with manufacturing engineering for a living. So unlike other members, you can't just claim things towards me with little to no logic or reasoning behind your statements. If you don't have a legitimate argument to make then don't respond to my content. Simple as that bud.

Here's your sign!!

You've stated you're an engineer (automotive or otherwise)? I believe you also stated, "you've worked in the automotive industry," in a post above? I believe as automotive engineer, you will have specific knowledge of a BOV's /diverters operation and purpose. Seriously, this particular comment throws up a red flag of doubt in my mind!! By-the-way, Ford has been utilizing GDI's, turbos, BOV's/Diverter valves and supercharged applications for quite some time.

I disagree with your speculative points and assertions regarding the need of a catch can with this particular engine. You aren't able to demonstrate to anyone including myself, you've borescoped your own engine internals repetitively, over the long term. Thus, have no and haven't attempted to supported your hypothesis with factual, concrete evidence. So to me, it's simply speculation!

 

[avayswavay]

No offense intended but I observe quite well.

This discussion has gone somewhere for sure. It's right back to you proving what you're claiming.
Well I suppose you're just going to have to go and research my word. It's backed by over 4.5 decades of trained, practical mechanical experience. PM me, I'll be more than happy to tell you about my mechanical training and practical experience.

If you want to verify and refute as in a real debate, then you're just going to have to go and research and learn. As of right now, most of your claims are merely speculation, without any viable or factual long term proof. How can I tell? Due to my own professional mechanical training, 4.5 decades of practical experience and your personal comments.

Frankly, as I comment before, it's more based upon your past experience with the VW you owned. Not with the new Hyundai VN 2.0T Theta II, which you have never owned in the past. How do I know this? You commented about it yourself. and these are your own words;
Truely, no offense intended but your own comments are bit dubious. This ^ isn't even, a layman's awareness or understanding, to be direct. You're not familiar with the basic principles and operation of a BOV?
Here's your sign!!

You've stated you're an engineer (automotive or otherwise)? I believe you also tated, "you've a worked in the automotive industry, in a post above? I believe as nn automotive engineer, you will have specific knowledge of a BOV's operation and purpose. Seriously, this particular comment throw up a flag of doubt in my mind!! By-the-way, Ford has been utilizing GDI's, turbos, BOV's and supercharged applications for quite some time.

I disagree with your speculative points and assertions regarding the need of a catch can with this particular engine. You aren't able to demonstrate to anyone including myself you've borescoped your own engine internals repetitively over the long term. Thus, haven't attempted to supported your hypothesis with factual, concrete evidence. So to me, it's simply speculation!

Lmao again man I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you. Your method is to just poke holes in peoples arguments and shift my words (aka a troll). You did not address any of the evidence that I posted in my last response. I really have no idea what you are talking about. I keep saying I've never said that you NEED a catch can but for some reason you keep putting those words in my mouth. You are trying to make an argument that I'm not even trying to make lmao. I never said I don't know what a BOV's function is lmaoo. Clearly I was being extra sarcastic. Im sorry that I have a sense of humor. So now you are trying to discredit me personally because I have provided factual evidence to back up what I'm claiming. That is a classic method for having a weak argument with no evidence to back up your claims. I was implying that individuals purchase BOV's just for noise unless you are pushing huge horsepower numbers and big boost. Most OEM diverter valves are over engineered for the stock levels of boost they are handling. Clearly I know what a BOV is. Your are making up statements that I never said to not even prove a point. Your just trying to discredit me at this point because I was able to prove your claims irrelevant with scientific studies. Diverter valves are actually more functional that BOV in the sense that you don't lose all that boost. It is simply diverted to the other side of the turbo. The comment that you used to state I'm ignorant to the platform is right after I purchased the car lmao. Of course I didn't know much about it. That comment was made more than half a year ago. I've learned a ton about this specific platform since then and already had plenty of prior knowledge about GDI Turbo applications. Please do better man. Stick to the argument and the facts. Your making yourself look silly attacking my intelligence. Finally, this is not speculation. All the evidence from GDI engines since inception have shown that they build carbon deposits. Even motors running fully synthetic oil. Why would this engine be different? Boroscoping a brand new engine shows nothing...the engine is brand new. Hyundai vehicles still build carbon deposits, ask your dealer. This is why they provide chemical cleaning services. I don't even know what point your trying to prove anymore. Your just attacking me personally lol. For the last time I never said anyone NEEDED a catch can or that its MANDATORY. Those are your words trying to drum up an argument for God knows what reason.

 

[Davo01]

In any case all these catch cans and are very poor performers. This issue has been going on for ages in the diesel community for years.
See my post #84 and onwards. If you’re serious then use a proper one that filters. For a scientific study see the link below from my post. Why on earth the GDI community has been screwing about with baffles, well, baffles me:

http://mag.unsealed4x4.com.au/u4x4/issue057/#121

 

[Davo01]

The 3800 claim that the turbo side is the main issue is in the case of a heavily boosted set up. Multiple members with stock boost show zero oil from that side, including me and Tarmro, whom I trust implicitly.

 

[avayswavay]

Now to move onto the evidence. I encourage everyone to do their own research. Please please do your own research and testing. Do not rely just on my words or anyone else's on any forum. Below is a video from EngineeringExplained on Youtube. He quotes a Society of Automotive Engineering experiment that measures the amount of carbon buildup on intake valves from blow by and crank case ventilation. The results were obvious. As you route the crankcase ventilation system to atmosphere carbon deposits are significantly decreased. Thus, using a catch can keeps your emissions in check but also can significantly reduce carbon buildup by capturing oil particles that would otherwise blast the intake valves. He also mentions just like me that catch cans are NOT a cure all. They simply help to mitigate the issue at hand.

@R Veloster N Its hilarious to me how you claim to observe quite well but your twisting my words out of context to try and discredit my intelligence. In the bold, I clearly state for like the 11th time how Catch Cans are not a cure-all and they are simply to help mitigate the forming of carbon buildup. Never have I once said they cure carbon deposit buildup or its mandatory for everyone to equip one to their vehicle. I know that's what you want my argument to be but its not. My argument is that carbon deposit will form on any Direct Injection Turbo car. If its 60k, 80k, 100k, or 120k. This is common industry knowledge. I am promoting the benefits of using a cheap method to help and mitigate the issue. If you don't feel you need one then don't install one it's as simple as that. If you keep the car for its entire life eventually you will have to do a chemical or manual cleaning. I still plan on doing chemical cleanings anyway as I know for a fact that a catch can will not solve this issue by itself. I really do not know what point you're trying to make anymore other than arguing because you are bored. You have not responded to any of the articles or studies I have posted. You have questioned my ability as an engineer multiple times despite me never questioning your mechanic background. I simply asked you to provide evidence as you have dismissed my claims and my profession. You have to give respect to earn respect. You're rude, you twist people's words and you continue to argue against me when I have clearly said to agree to disagree. We have both proved our points. Do better man. Your poisoning a good thread for no reason other than to try and discredit me.

 

[avayswavay]

In any case all these catch cans and are very poor performers. This issue has been going on for ages in the diesel community for years.
See my post #84 and onwards. If you’re serious then use a proper one that filters. For a scientific study see the link below from my post. Why on earth the GDI community has been screwing about with baffles, well, baffles me:

http://mag.unsealed4x4.com.au/u4x4/issue057/#121

The price I assume. The filter that I'm running also has a micron filter. I believe you about there being better filtering methods out there though for more money.

The 3800 claim that the turbo side is the main issue is in the case of a heavily boosted set up. Multiple members with stock boost show zero oil from that side, including me and Tarmro, whom I trust implicitly.

I agree with this statement. I was just relaying comments that were told to me by another member with a boosted application. That's why I don't run a can on the breather side. Doesn't seem beneficial if your only running stock levels of boost.

 

[Davo01]

Yeah - I can’t find a single thing on the web about any TGDI running one. They’re like $200 Aussie. Compared to $60 Aussie for a baffle...it’s too weird, so I haven’t gone there because I ain’t gunna be the first....

 

[avayswavay]

Yeah - I can’t find a single thing on the web about any TGDI running one. They’re like $200 Aussie. Compared to $60 Aussie for a baffle...it’s too weird, so I haven’t gone there because I ain’t gunna be the first....

lmaoo do it man. You'll be a pioneer.

 

[Davo01]

lmaoo do it man. You'll be a pioneer.

Hahaha not a chance. Way too risk adverse when it comes to my car ;-)

 

[avayswavay]

Hahaha not a chance. Way too risk adverse when it comes to my car ;-)

Haha I think most of us are as we are on comment #250 on a catch can thread

 

[avayswavay]

You simply have no first hand proof, with this particular engine and in reality don't know. Which amounts to hypothetical supposition and personal speculation. You are simply plagiarizing the information provided by the internet and internalizing it. You really don't have any practical experience.

Your insistence to others that a catch can is a viable alternative is farcical and unfounded.

From the above post, you had a catch can in your GTI How much oil per 1000km did the catch can in your MK7 GTI accumulate?

In your VN you had 15mL in 3000 miles = 5mL/1000miles.

Thanks to @Davo01 for also pointing this out.

Even after the inclusion of a PVC catch can on your VAG engine, it still didn't mitigate the need for a manual decoking/decarbonizing @60K miles and $700+ dollars later. So once again, what you've offered is invalid, by your own previous comments and admissions.

This is exactly what I have observe, you have comment too and are attempting to convince others of.

Mannnnn you really are a troll bro. You just edited all this info into a previous post instead of just making a new one lmaoo. And again you took the information in parts only to try and discredit me. I corrected @Davo01 my results were for 1000 mile intervals. So per 3000 miles I'm collecting 45 ml not 15ml.

This is how I responded: I never personally recorded oil levels of catch can results on my MK7 application. It was substantial but never documented. Also the can I was running in that application would also capture substantial wator vapor. At the time I was too lazy to determine how much was oil and how much condensed vapor lol. The results I posted regarding my VN are per 1000 miles. So it's 15ml in 1000 miles, 45 ml in 3000 miles.

You're running a fake news information campaign here guy. You never asked when I installed a catch can on my last car. Lmaoo I literally installed the catch can and pcv plate during the last couple thousand miles before 60k and before I sold it. So this proves nothing. The carbon was already built and it already needed carbon cleaning. Maybe if I had installed the can when I bought the vehicle I could have helped to mitigate it Good try again to discredit me. This is how I know for a fact you are not reading anything I'm writing simply hunting for ways to discredit me. There was never an opportunity for information sharing here in the first place. You just want to be correct by any means possible LMAO. While providing no new scientific data or personal evidence of your own. There's not gonna be a "gotcha" moment here but you're trying hard.

 

[avayswavay]

There's some great 3rd party information here that does not come from me or you @R Veloster N you should read it

My intent is to never fear monger, just to provide relevant information based on factual data and evidence. I have been accused of ranting, speculating, and not providing data or evidence so here we go with a quick explanation on my reasoning and the issues we have been dealing with in the car industry in regards to carbon buildup and direct injection.

We will start with this. Car companies have one job. To sell cars and make profit. As environmental regulations increase in an attempt to help the planet, regulations and rules have been tightened on auto manufacturers. Direct Injection motors are an attempt to meet these regulations while also delivering a better product. Direct Injection allows one to have a lot of flexibility with tuning. You can create more power, have better fuel economy, and have greater flexibility of motor capabilities on the fly. ECU's have become super fast and smart in their ability to continuously alter how a motor functions (such as timing). The trade off to DI is that there is no fuel that is washing over the intake valves to clean off any deposits that have formed on them. Port injected cars still have to vent crankcase pressure from blow by. Back in the day blow by could be vented right to the atmosphere. Meaning you never had to deal with the junk coming out of them. As regulations have tightened this blow by has been rerouted back into the intake stream to be re burned in the engine. This means that our crankcase ventilation systems were an AFTERTHOUGHT. Thus, one gets carbon deposits that form on the intake valve from the gunk that is coming from the crankcase. Deposits cool on the intake valves and eventually cake and build. While a port injected vehicle would use gasoline to wash away small deposits from ever forming this is not the case on DI vehicles. This is not a Hyundai issue, this is not a Volkswagen issue this is an INDUSTRY issue. It is simply the technology that is flawed. Plain...and simple. Car companies do not promote the downsides of this technology because why would they? There job is to sell cars. A brand new DI engine has more power and better fuel economy. Why would you advertise more maintenance? In the American market a lot of individuals do not notice or deal with these carbon deposit issues as most Americans only keep their vehicles for 2-3 years on average. This is evident in the way that Volkswagen sells its Golf vehicles. In america we only get DI. We still get the power and fuel efficiency but the drawbacks of carbon build up. In the European market the GTI's have already switched over to both DI and Port injection. A concept that the largest auto maker in the world made common...Toyota. Europeans tend to keep their vehicles for much longer time frames in relation to Americans (silly Americans lol). The benefits of running both DI and port injection is simply not just cleaning off intake valves. You can perform even greater tricks with timing, cooling, fuel efficiency etc. But a huge benefit is having no carbon deposits to deal with.

Now to move onto the evidence. I encourage everyone to do their own research. Please please do your own research and testing. Do not rely just on my words or anyone else's on any forum. Below is a video from EngineeringExplained on Youtube. He quotes a Society of Automotive Engineering experiment that measures the amount of carbon buildup on intake valves from blow by and crank case ventilation. The results were obvious. As you route the crankcase ventilation system to atmosphere carbon deposits are significantly decreased. Thus, using a catch can keeps your emissions in check but also can significantly reduce carbon buildup by capturing oil particles that would otherwise blast the intake valves. He also mentions just like me that catch cans are NOT a cure all. They simply help to mitigate the issue at hand.

Next, this is another video from savagegeese. He is very informed and has a very nice channel on youtube. He completely explains direct injection, why it was invented, drawbacks, and how to prevent them. He specifically mentions carbon buildup on GDI cars as a HUGE issue in the INDUSTRY. I highly recommend watching all 20 minutes of this video as it is very informative. He includes multiple sources and diagrams from large scale automakers such as HYUNDAI/KIA. At the 6:38 mark he explains the issues with direct injection and how blow by gasses cause carbon buildup on intake valves. At 12:52 he speaks on the benefits of using catch cans to mitigate blow by gases that are funneled through the pcv system.

Moving along... here is a description of the services that Hyundai still utilize to clean carbon buildup off of their intake valves and throttle bodies to this day. I called 3 different local dealers in my area yesterday and asked to speak to the service managers. All 3 service managers claim that even though carbon buildup issues have been getting better and better this is STILL an issue found with all of the GDI engines that Hyundai produces. They offer chemical cleaning service to clean the intake valves. They recommended I come in for service every 30k miles to ensure that carbon build up is not an issue. The logic behind this is that if you wait until 60, 80, 100k miles there will be so much carbon buildup that you will have to do a manual cleaning. Even if you factor in the thought that dealers are scammers and are trying to take my money every 30k one would assume its prob in our best interest to get our valves chemically cleaned every 60k miles or so at a MINIMUM. Additionally there is a video where a Hyundai tech shows how they perform the chemical cleaning. I also mentioned that I have a VN and they saw no reason why this vehicle also would not develop carbon buildup in its lifetime.

https://www.tampahyundai.com/service/fuel-induction-service.htm

Finally there is another mentality as to why carbon buildup occurs on motors. It is the mentality that oil slips past the valve stem seals and creeps down the valves onto the top of them. Thus, coating the valves and caking on carbon of the valves. As any engineer would know nothing designed is perfect or durable for an eternity. It is my understanding that all valve stem seals leak at least a tiny bit and only leak more as they age. You can find a Valvoline article that explains this concept below.

https://team.valvoline.com/diy/truth-behind-carbon-buildup

Finally, using logic lets assume that the Hyundai air/oil separator installed is relatively effective. We already know to the best of our ability that it was installed to prevent oil from leaking out of the engine cover during track days. We can see by the video posted below at the 12:00 minute mark that the intent was for track use, not carbon buildup mitigation. Can it be used for this as well? I would hope so. But I have already proved on my own setup, under my driving conditions, in my geographic area that I still capture a SIGNIFICANT amount of oil in my Mishimoto catch can. Every 3000 miles I capture roughly 45 ml. Over a 60k miles that's roughly 1/4 of a gallon of oil that will flow over my intake valves back into my combustion chamber. So again this OEM oil/separator is not perfect by any means.

I simply posted my results for my own application in both this forum and the American forum to share information. I am not jaded by previous experiences with GDI Turbo applications. I am presenting information and evidence to back up those facts. It is not a matter of IF our VN's will get carbon buildup its a matter of WHEN. If you plan to sell the car in under 5 years I wouldn't worry about it. If you just want to wait till the carbon gets really bad (stuttering, poor motor performance etc.) you can do that as well and just get it cleaned when the time has come for $500+. But if you want to jump ahead of the issue a catch can is a GREAT CHEAP tool to utilize. I have never claimed that one HAS to have a catch can or it is the end all be all. I still plan to have my valves cleaned at 30k or 40k chemically. I think for me anything before that is too labor intensive. I know I have also bought myself some time by running a catch can and emptying its contents. Please everyone do your own research and test your own vehicle. I am just offering my opinion, findings, and literature to expand upon this topic. So I say all that to say the amount of oil I have been capturing is NOT negligible. There is too much information out here on the web that shows carbon buildup has been an issue for years. It is too naive to believe this issue has magically been solved by Hyundai JUST for our cars lol. I know we love our vehicles but facts are facts and we must be unbiased. Especially when Hyundai is STILL chemically carbon cleaning there cars. Perform your regular maintenance, use high grade synthetic oil to mitigate the oil breaking down and flowing over your valves, use fuel cleaner to keep your injectors clean, and finally high grade detergent gasoline (93) to assist in keeping you fuel system clean. Chemical Carbon cleaning is NOT regular maintenance in the sense of changing an oil filter, air filter, or your oil. To my knowledge it is not mentioned in the user manual. Again car companies are not going to advertise that one has to now pay someone to perform an expensive service if one is coming over from a port injected car where no such service is needed. They are trying to sell motors, and cars. More power, better fuel, smaller surface area etc. but they will not tell you up front about carbon issues. I hope someone can learn from this info! Good luck!!!

 

[avayswavay]

So here we have proof again that you don't read responses. You are just commenting to try and prove your own point not to share info. You just posted this reply and then deleted it because you realized that your answer makes zero sense. I told you that I didn't use a can on my MK7 VW GTI until right before I sold it at 60k lmaooo. Again man c'mon do better. Don't just respond saying, anything man. Actually read first. And uhuh Hyundai just offers carbon cleaning services that one never has to use just like they offer brake services, and oil changes lmaoo. Call your local dealer man. Talk to a local tech or a service manager. Maybe they will tell you carbon buildup is not still an issue on their GDI Turbo cars in your region, but where I am it is. I know I called three different ones and they all gave me the same result. Call a dealer you trust.. Until then keep the trolling level to a minimum. And again...I never said a catch can was required on any car. I am under the assumption if I keep saying "I never said a catch can WAS NEEDED OR MANDATORY" you will finally understand. But you're not getting it so I will just have to be patient and keep saying it LMAO. It is a tool used to help mitigate carbon buildup. You can NOT run a can do frequent chemical carbon cleaning and be fine. I've said this over and over but you're not grasping the concept. So I have to repeat myself. I had a lot of free time today so I thought I would play your little game.

 

[R Veloster N]

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. So I simply withdrew the comments. But the comments still hold true no matter.

Breath man, relax and calm down. You've made three entire pages of the same rant over and over again. Just because you type a lot doesn't mean you're right. Most times, it just means you type a lot.

Have a good evening and relax, you really need too. You're not making much sense.

 

[avayswavay]

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. So I simply withdrew the comments. But the comments still hold true no matter.

Breath man, relax and calm down. You've made three entire pages of the same rant over and over again. Just because you type a lot doesn't mean you right. Most times, it just means you type a lot.

Uhuh. LMAO. Very calm... But I understand you're trying to discredit me by saying that I am in a frenzy or panicked... The comments don't hold true because I barely ran the can in the VW LMAO (Huh?) Already figured out your game dude. When you can't make a valid point you go back in the thread and edit comments based on how other members respond. You do this too everyone, not just me. So when someone reads the thread at a later date you look super smart. You assume the other member who you are debating won't see the edited comment thus they can't effectively defend the point they are trying to make. You could simply make a new post with new statements if you were indeed trying to share information and spread knowledge. So that the other member would be informed via a notification that new information and new points were added to the conversation. But you're on here just trying to boost your ego. *kanye shrug

 

[R Veloster N]

You're ranting! Relax! Go have a glass of wine and clam down for your own heath sake, please!

 

[avayswavay]

You're ranting! Relax! Go have a glass of wine and clam down for your own heath sake, please!

Ahh convo is finally done, my job here is done lmaoo I had time for you today sir, I had time.. LMAO

 

[R Veloster N]

Good! happy for you!

 

[avayswavay]

Good! happy for you!

 

[NULLOBANDITO]

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