Turbo replacement - differences and is it worth it

[kamyk155]

Hello again guys.
I'm thinking about new - better turbo. This is the only part in my car without upgrade and the only bottleneck left.

At firts here is a list of my mods if we talk about performance (from front to back of the car) :
- forge intercooler
- forge boost pipe
- velossa tech snorkel
- oem box with pipercross filter
- hdt 89mm intake pipe
- hdt turbo inlet adapter
- STOCK TURBO
- hks sparkplugs m45xl
- hdt downpipe hjs ece 200 euro 6 (89mm-76mm)
- hdt flexpipe (76mm-76mm)
- hdt opf/gpf dummy (76mm-76mm)
- remus exhaus (76mm)
- reinforced oem clutch with kevlar

So - whole intake and exhaust have enlarged diameter. Clutch will be fine too.
I'm not counting other mods like engine strut, mounts and other stuff.

Now the only problem is with turbo - there are few on the market but they differ from each other.
I have three in mind:
1- turbozentrum - most expensive 2144euro - stage 3 400hp+
2- turbo-total - weird cheap 1666euro - stage 2 400hp
3- turbo-total - good price 1904euro - stage 3 400hp+

There are some differences:

1.TURBOZENTRUM

Technical Details:
- As a base we use an original MHI turbocharger (part number: 28231-2GTB1)
- 400HP+ *
- maximum size of compression wheel **
- CNC milled compression wheel with slim design and extended tip technology
- in-house CNC milling and gap optimization of the compression housing
- in-house CNC milling and gap optimization of the exhaust housing
- 45,6/52,3mm bigger turbine wheel MHI
- (if necessary) reenforced actuator with increased preload
- every single step is done by us in house

2.TURBO-TOTAL stage 2

Technical Details:
– Billet Compressor Wheel
– Cut-Back Turbine Wheel
– CNC-Machining Compressor Housing
– High Speed Balanacing
- Boost pressure: 1.40 bar
- Backpressure: 2.4 bar

3.TURBO-TOTAL stage 3

Technical Details:
– Billet Compressor Wheel
– High Flow Turbine Wheel
– CNC-Machining Compressor Housing
– CNC-Machining Turbine Housing
– High Speed Balanacing

After those technical details both stage 3 looks really good. There are few tests and user reviews.
Turbozentrum looks more expensive but I think it is better company and it have better reviews (few infos about less pressure needed).
Turbo-total look less expensive but with 1.3bar 370hp is easy too.
If I decide to upgrade I will think about 370-375hp and something like 450-470nm. I'm not thinking about fuel pump so that's why.

And here are another few doubts:
- does replacing turbo I need to lower the whole engine or it is possible to do the swap from under of the car and from open hood
- after new turbo I will need some aftermarket turbo cover/blanket or additional metal cover like on my downpipe
- I will need new gaskets or stud bolts

Summing up expenses:
- price of the turbo
- turbo cover/blanket
- gaskets/bolts
- work cost
- ecu remap

Any advices guys ?

 

[Bu11eT]

There are two more:
- HM450 by Hyundai i30 N - HM-TurboTechnik
- LM450 by Ladermanufaktur – Upgrade Turbolader

HM450 is the go-to turbo for most upgrades in Germany as the Price-Performance-Ratio is really good. It also comes with a new CNCed cone for the compressor side and a 9 blade turbine side which yields additional performance.

LM450 is the most expensive one. I don't have any more infos about that one. Best bet would be to give the guy a call.


The engine does not have to be lowered. You need to remove the front subframe and the downpipe and then you are able to reach it.
Regarding the turbo blankets I would talk to the guy you buy the turbo from. Some turbos like the additional heat, others do not.

I highly highly highly recommend the high pressure fuel pump upgrade if you want to run those figures. otherwise it's just half the deal.

 

[Felix]

I have the one from Turbozentrum installed to my car and so far I can’t complain. At the moment I run it with 280kW only because of the OPF that is still untouched.
One point: the 2100 € is the price for a new turbo + modification. You can also send in your old one and let this one being modified for 1,7k€ (as far as I remember).

 

[kamyk155]

Yeah I know the price for new and possibility of modding used turbo for lower price but I'm from other country and better to swap turbo and don't wait few weeks without car.

If we talk about fueal pump - few people here on the forum did it and didn't have more power. Even TarmoT and someone else told that this is waste of money.

Here is the review on one known German i30n owner about turbo-total and easy 370hp without pump:

Post | i30N Tipps

www.i30n-tipps.de

 

[Felix]

The pump won’t give you any additional power but it will help you keeping it up and constant during demanding driving.

Yeah I know the price for new and possibility of modding used turbo for lower price but I'm from other country and better to swap turbo and don't wait few weeks without car.

If we talk about fueal pump - few people here on the forum did it and didn't have more power. Even TarmoT and someone else told that this is waste of money.

Here is the review on one known German i30n owner about turbo-total and easy 370hp without pump:

Post | i30N Tipps

www.i30n-tipps.de

 

[kamyk155]

What about this two opinions:

1. TarmoT - You need one stage colder spark plugs and and upgrade clutch only. You don´t need these silly upgrade fuel pumps..
2. R Veloster N - Upgrading the HPFP or tank fuel pump is really a waste of time and money, unless you're planning to add new fuel rails, HF Injectors etc.

It was after Polish i30n owner (N-a-N-a-N-a) changed his turbo.

 

[Bu11eT]

If we talk about fueal pump - few people here on the forum did it and didn't have more power. Even TarmoT and someone else told that this is waste of money.

Here is the review on one known German i30n owner about turbo-total and easy 370hp without pump:

Post | i30N Tipps

www.i30n-tipps.de

And this is the big misconception. The hpfp will not show any gains in hp on a dyno as you are only doing a pull in a single gear. The hpfp will only show itself upon a gearchange with WOT. This is the detail 90% of people get wrong, the guy with that blog post as well. I talked numerous times with him and he will likely do the hpfp in the future as well. Have a read over here: Engine - Changing hpfp | Hyundai N-cars i30 N, i20 N, Veloster N, Kona N, Tuscon N Owners Club and Forum - N-cars.net

The hpfp will only manifest itself on the street. @R Veloster N wrote that here as well:
Engine - Changing hpfp | Hyundai N-cars i30 N, i20 N, Veloster N, Kona N, Tuscon N Owners Club and Forum - N-cars.net
Maybe he can give his two cents to clear this up.

A hpfp without an upgrade turbo is a waste of money, except when you want to extract the last degree of ignition from the engine. As soon as you run an upgraded turbocharger, the hpfp makes sense.

Don't get me wrong, your car will drive fine without the hpfp, it will just drive better and be faster with the upgraded hpfp.

 

[R Veloster N]

What about this two opinions:

1. TarmoT - You need one stage colder spark plugs and and upgrade clutch only. You don´t need these silly upgrade fuel pumps..
2. R Veloster N - Upgrading the HPFP or tank fuel pump is really a waste of time and money, unless you're planning to add new fuel rails, HF Injectors etc.

It was after Polish i30n owner (N-a-N-a-N-a) changed his turbo.

A caveat;

I’m going to say, depending upon the ECU Fuel map and each hybrid turbo upgrade.

We have found out during extended higher use and speed, the OEM HPFP drops off in pressure output as much as 1000 psi. It has to do with the OEM HPFP internals. We’ve found out, this is apparent with the use of both OEM Turbo or upgraded units.

The LPFP doesn’t need to be changed. However, we’ve found the HPFP pressures to be much more consistent @ 2900+ with the upgraded HMS or Carlicious HPFP’s.
Do you need to; it’s dependent more upon the ECU mapping and turbocharger requirements. This drop in psi, causes a drastic change in fuel delivery and A/F ratios. With out the modified A/F mapping (tune) it can reduce high rpm operation, throttle and turbocharger response.

I’ve been running the upgraded HMS HPFP with my VN, as I’m running a different fuel rail (prototype) and ECU fuel mapping.

Throttle, turbo response and recovery between shifts, is immediate and very consistent. Even when the engine is hot and heat soaked.

I wasn’t going to upgrade it at first but considering the TCR VN utilizes both and I’m actually over their output at the crank, I decided to give it a go. So far, it’s been well worth the upgrade.

I’ve been learning more and more about the OEM turbocharger setup. As you’ll recall, I originally stated; “ I was attempting to squeeze as much power out of the OEM turbocharger as possible.” Am I there yet? I believe very close.

 

[digitalpeer]

Whats the new FL e0 model turbo like power wise? Ive been hearing decent things. But nothing i can back up with links

also following on from Rs post above
Real world and dyno can show a substantial burden diference on the turbo with the fuel moving around and you can be on and off the gas a ton more than a dyno.
leaning out is really easy way to kill a motor. Ask me how i know lol..

 

[kamyk155]

For now I'm waiting for last visit in my tuner workshop.
It will be total reset of the ecu and back to original setup.
Then I need to make an appointment with TarmoT tuner and start from beginning.
I talked with him and he told me to do not buy new turbo too soon. First of all - he want to check everything with stock ecu, then start to tune the power. When everything will be ok with higher power - then think about better turbo.

If we talk about turbo - I started to think that this is another bottomless well.
I thought new turbo + new tune = better performance. But for now I started to think my actual mods are not enough.
You guys say - better turbo will be true better with better fuel pump (let's call it safer and future proof).
Better pump will be with better intake fuel pump.
Both pumps will be better with colder spark plugs.
This is eternal circle of mods to do.
Sooner or later we will know something more about our cars and another mod will be recommended for safety or the longer life of the car engine/turbo.

 

[Bu11eT]

If we talk about turbo - I started to think that this is another bottomless well.
I thought new turbo + new tune = better performance. But for now I started to think my actual mods are not enough.
You guys say - better turbo will be true better with better fuel pump (let's call it safer and future proof).
Better pump will be with better intake fuel pump.
Both pumps will be better with colder spark plugs.
This is eternal circle of mods to do.
Sooner or later we will know something more about our cars and another mod will be recommended for safety or the longer life of the car engine/turbo.

this is the tuning life isnt it?

Turbo and high pressure fuel pumps are the recommended mods to do with the power figures you want to achieve. The low pressure fuel pump is something you can do, but there are some drawbacks associated with it (ask @Felix ).

But since colder spark plugs as well as the low pressure fuel pumps are quite cheap (in comparison), I would not be that afraid to just do them as well to be future proof like you said.
It's always a question of which power figures are your goal and whether you know yourself well enough if you would be happy with them. If you know that would will ask for more power sooner than later, just do the smaller mods like lpfp and spark plugs as well. Just my opinion

 

[kamyk155]

Spark plugs are on my list above in my actual mods.

About prices...
turbo - about 2200 euro (delivery included)
swap work - 200-300 euro
hpfp - about 950 euro (delivery included)
swap work - 100-150 euro
lpfp - about 300 euro (delivery included)
swap work - 100-150 euro
ecu tune - 400-450 euro

Max 4500 euro.
So.... it isn't too funny and cheap.

 

[digitalpeer]

For now I'm waiting for last visit in my tuner workshop.
It will be total reset of the ecu and back to original setup.
Then I need to make an appointment with TarmoT tuner and start from beginning.
I talked with him and he told me to do not buy new turbo too soon. First of all - he want to check everything with stock ecu, then start to tune the power. When everything will be ok with higher power - then think about better turbo.

If we talk about turbo - I started to think that this is another bottomless well.
I thought new turbo + new tune = better performance. But for now I started to think my actual mods are not enough.
You guys say - better turbo will be true better with better fuel pump (let's call it safer and future proof).
Better pump will be with better intake fuel pump.
Both pumps will be better with colder spark plugs.
This is eternal circle of mods to do.
Sooner or later we will know something more about our cars and another mod will be recommended for safety or the longer life of the car engine/turbo.

Its a rabbit hole mate, sounds like your doing a decent job of weighing up cost vs application already. Be good to follow along and see the results

 

[Bu11eT]

Spark plugs are on my list above in my actual mods.

About prices...
turbo - about 2200 euro (delivery included)
swap work - 200-300 euro
hpfp - about 950 euro (delivery included)
swap work - 100-150 euro
lpfp - about 300 euro (delivery included)
swap work - 100-150 euro
ecu tune - 400-450 euro

Max 4500 euro.
So.... it isn't too funny and cheap.

no one said it would be cheap

I myself am struggling with the prices for a turbo upgrade and am already exploring cheaper ways of doing such an upgrade.

I just wanna safe you from spending extra money on mods you may do later on either way, especially when you want to increase the power figures even further.

 

[R Veloster N]

Yes sir, it's a mountain to climb. Once you get over one pinnacle, you find there's another you didn't quite see. To stop is simple; either the cost is to high or you find an acceptable niche.

 

[Brenno]

Hello again guys.
I'm thinking about new - better turbo. This is the only part in my car without upgrade and the only bottleneck left.

At firts here is a list of my mods if we talk about performance (from front to back of the car) :
- forge intercooler
- forge boost pipe
- velossa tech snorkel
- oem box with pipercross filter
- hdt 89mm intake pipe
- hdt turbo inlet adapter
- STOCK TURBO
- hks sparkplugs m45xl
- hdt downpipe hjs ece 200 euro 6 (89mm-76mm)
- hdt flexpipe (76mm-76mm)
- hdt opf/gpf dummy (76mm-76mm)
- remus exhaus (76mm)
- reinforced oem clutch with kevlar

So - whole intake and exhaust have enlarged diameter. Clutch will be fine too.
I'm not counting other mods like engine strut, mounts and other stuff.

Now the only problem is with turbo - there are few on the market but they differ from each other.
I have three in mind:
1- turbozentrum - most expensive 2144euro - stage 3 400hp+
2- turbo-total - weird cheap 1666euro - stage 2 400hp
3- turbo-total - good price 1904euro - stage 3 400hp+

There are some differences:

1.TURBOZENTRUM

Technical Details:
- As a base we use an original MHI turbocharger (part number: 28231-2GTB1)
- 400HP+ *
- maximum size of compression wheel **
- CNC milled compression wheel with slim design and extended tip technology
- in-house CNC milling and gap optimization of the compression housing
- in-house CNC milling and gap optimization of the exhaust housing
- 45,6/52,3mm bigger turbine wheel MHI
- (if necessary) reenforced actuator with increased preload
- every single step is done by us in house

2.TURBO-TOTAL stage 2

Technical Details:
– Billet Compressor Wheel
– Cut-Back Turbine Wheel
– CNC-Machining Compressor Housing
– High Speed Balanacing
- Boost pressure: 1.40 bar
- Backpressure: 2.4 bar

3.TURBO-TOTAL stage 3

Technical Details:
– Billet Compressor Wheel
– High Flow Turbine Wheel
– CNC-Machining Compressor Housing
– CNC-Machining Turbine Housing
– High Speed Balanacing

After those technical details both stage 3 looks really good. There are few tests and user reviews.
Turbozentrum looks more expensive but I think it is better company and it have better reviews (few infos about less pressure needed).
Turbo-total look less expensive but with 1.3bar 370hp is easy too.
If I decide to upgrade I will think about 370-375hp and something like 450-470nm. I'm not thinking about fuel pump so that's why.

And here are another few doubts:
- does replacing turbo I need to lower the whole engine or it is possible to do the swap from under of the car and from open hood
- after new turbo I will need some aftermarket turbo cover/blanket or additional metal cover like on my downpipe
- I will need new gaskets or stud bolts

Summing up expenses:
- price of the turbo
- turbo cover/blanket
- gaskets/bolts
- work cost
- ecu remap

Any advices guys ?

I am running the Turbozentrum 400hp+ Turbo and HPC coated the manifold and I haven't touched any of the fuel system and it is at 12:1 on the top end. I have currently 383bhp (243kw at the wheels) on 1.4-1.5 bar and it drives fantastic. I replaced my turbo on a hoist and it took me about a day to do it. I have had mine on for about one year now with no issues. My mods are :

AFE Momentum intake with custom 4" pipe
Velossa Big mouth
Forge turbo intlet adapter
Forge Intercooler
X-Force full exhaust
GFB Bov
HKS MX45XL Plugs
Unichip
Turbozentrum Stage 3 Turbo
X-treme Clutch
Forge Oil Catch Can
Forge Oil Cooler

 

[kamyk155]

Good to know that someone didn't change fuel pump and car is still driving great.

 

[kamyk155]

Hello again.
After few days I started to think about turbo again but still have few questions to our members with hybrid turbo.
First of all - I'm thinking about it in few parts.
Step no.1 - turbo - in this case - turbozentrum stage 3 400hp+ or stage 3+ 450hp+ (there is only 250 euro diference).
Why those - well known shop, they are plug and play but expensive. Still can think about it like one-time lifetime puchase.
Step no.2 - ecu tune in mmtuning solutions - in this case a big trip to Germany or do it by TarmoT tuner remotely.
After those two steps - checking how the car will drive without fuel pump upgrade and without oil cooler.

Still don't know where to swap the turbo - do it in my country or contact mmtuning and thay will do it maybe ?
For now - I'm on 6 month termination of my military career and will have some more time for the car.
Month or two to puchase the turbo and then time to think where to do step 2.
Let's say my power target is 375hp - it will look cool - 100hp more than stock but who knows....maybe round 400hp.

Now the dilemma about turbo pick:
- stage 3 400hp is known as about 375-385hp
- stage 3+ 450hp - hard to say because I didn't see any scores or owners here on the forum - maybe 400+hp but only 250 euro more isn't a big problem but don't want to regret I didn't added those 250 euro (maybe is it worth it)

Questions:
- what about downpipe catalyst restrictions - I have HDT HJS ECE 200 euro 6 and found on their site info about universal cat with euro 6 is max 280ps (I didn't found exactly mine catalyst) - any reasons to worry about or this is somekind of emission thing - for example higher power and loosing euro 6 standard ?
- higher engine power with new turbo (let's say 375hp) - any engine life problems ?
- higher power = more heat - maybe time for oil cooler ?
- any info how much power the engine will survive with standard pistons, conrods and valves ?

 

[Bu11eT]

Still don't know where to swap the turbo - do it in my country or contact mmtuning and thay will do it maybe ?

Markus from MT Tuning offers a combi-package where he can install the turbo for you if you want.

Let's say my power target is 375hp - it will look cool - 100hp more than stock but who knows....maybe round 400hp.

if you want to run 400hp, you need the lpfp and hpfp upgrade.

- what about downpipe catalyst restrictions - I have HDT HJS ECE 200 euro 6 and found on their site info about universal cat with euro 6 is max 280ps (I didn't found exactly mine catalyst) - any reasons to worry about or this is somekind of emission thing - for example higher power and loosing euro 6 standard ?

as long as you have the 200 cell cat, you should be fine.

- higher engine power with new turbo (let's say 375hp) - any engine life problems ?

depends on the tune and how you drive it. for anything above 400hp you can say that it goes towards the upper limit of what the valves can handle as you need quite a bit of boost pressure to reach those figures. Conrod-upgrades make sense if you want to go well beyong 500NM but thats not advisable.

- higher power = more heat - maybe time for oil cooler ?

Since the stock car already suffers from high oil temps this is a sensible upgrade - MT Tuning would also recommend it if you ask him. Had quite a chat about the oil cooler topic with him.

- any info how much power the engine will survive with standard pistons, conrods and valves ?

everything below 420hp is considered "safe" ("safe" obv depends on the aggressiveness of the tune).
The ECU is the little bad boy here as you need to use a few tricks and have top notch hardware to reach 400-450hp. Consider everything below 420 safe, everything below 400 is super safe as long as your tuner does the right job and the installed hardware is fit for purpose.

@Felix is at MTTuning as we speak. Maybe he can give you some insights to how Markus from MT Tuning does his job.

 

[kamyk155]

Hmmmm.
In this case it will be better and safer for longer car life if I will buy stage 3 400hp turbo and oil cooler.
If mmtuning can swap the turbo and even install oil cooler at once - trip to Germany will be better too.
375hp/475nm is good looking sweet spot in this case.
Time to think and collect money in next months.