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Losing control on hard breaking in the wet on slippery ground

Teddy

Member
Nthusiast
Sep 24, 2020
46
32
18
Germany
Another day of driving training for me, and I've noticed something odd.
Car is planted no matter the mode, this goes to an extent for esp off. All courses and obstacles provided no problem but one thing.

Hard breaking. Road is slippery and wet, wheels come to a complete stop. This I know because some other attendees noticed and told me. I'm just losing control and spin out.
With low or no throttle or light breaking the car is still easy to control.
Tried in normal, N, and N ESP off. Tried in different speeds. Consistent behaviour of the car.

No CEL, no errors that I would know of in the lifetime of the car. In a straight line in the dry the ABS is working fine.
It goes from little to no understeer and being absolutely fine on light breaking or no breaking to complete loss of control and doing full 180ies+ on "real" braking.
Shouldn't my assistants prevent this?

Am I not seeing the obvious? Really doubting myself here.
 

petriN

Member
Nthusiast
Jun 22, 2020
26
40
13
Europe
So ABS isnā€™t working on slippery surfaces?Sounds scary. If you drive straight and do full emergency break, lock still happens? It cannot be feature of these cars as I must have had noticed it during our long winters here where I live šŸ„¶
 
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Teddy

Member
Nthusiast
Sep 24, 2020
46
32
18
Germany
did not do any hard breaking on that surfaces while just driving straight, should have tried. All driven on obstacle courses.
Some cones lost their life :D
All good in the dry.
I'd say you have about the same grip than on that surfaces than on old snow that was driven on and new snow on top so its pretty slippery.

Not scary at all, the environment is controlled. Also you try not to break hard on snow. It is just an observation I have no explanation for.
 
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digitalpeer

Active Member
Nthusiast
Nov 17, 2019
150
120
43
south australia
got some video mate? that sound extremely strange, i just came from a hard track day in the rain with no assists so its definitely not normal. would be interesting to see whats going on.. maybe theres an issue with the brakes on one side of the car or something.
 

Teddy

Member
Nthusiast
Sep 24, 2020
46
32
18
Germany
No Video. Thought a bit about it and I still have no explanation. As I said while it was fine to drive even without assists with no throttle. I spun out when breaking at the same speed no matter the assist level with locking wheels. Consistent applying of the brake.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, ESP off should not change anything about ABS behaviour?

To the dealer it goes, let's see if there is an error.
 

petriN

Member
Nthusiast
Jun 22, 2020
26
40
13
Europe
I just read owners manual and it states turning off ESC doesn't affect ABS system. It should mean that I cannot do Hollywood style full lock braking. ESC limits engine power and brakes whichever wheel it see fit, when it intervenes. Turning ESC partially off (single press) disables engine power cut and turning it fully off also disables brake intervention, but ABS should be still there.
 

digitalpeer

Active Member
Nthusiast
Nov 17, 2019
150
120
43
south australia
yeah i can confirm the abs does not turn off even if you hold down the trc / esc button. something is definitely wrong as the car is extremely well balanced in low grip situations.
 

Teddy

Member
Nthusiast
Sep 24, 2020
46
32
18
Germany
Quick update
No errors.
So the car says "I'm fine".
Now, I can't really do futher testing, a large empty parking lot and some snow would shureley help.
Suggestions?

What gets me is since the entry speed is radared I know that I had no issues controlling the car when not breaking. The exact same speed when breaking harder - no way.
 

Monty

Member
Nthusiast
Sep 19, 2018
37
46
18
lancashire
This happened yesterday on M6 motorway. It was raining and the road was greasy, traffic was stop start.
After just getting going again I looked down to change music track when the car in front braked suddenly, I wasn't quick enough to react and skidded into him. I don't recall the ABS kicking in and didn't feel any judder through the pedal, it could just be that I didn't brake hard enough, but in the split second I am sure I jumped on the brakes hard.
Cars off for repair hopefully on Friday, in the mean time driving around looking a bit embarrassed ā˜¹
 

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Teddy

Member
Nthusiast
Sep 24, 2020
46
32
18
Germany
Yep. Only ~9k km, tyres still lookin good. thread gets a little low on the front outsides (still plenty, but noticeably less), will have them swapped with the next service. Alignment is ok. A bit strange since the amount of hard driving has been minimal.

Would other tyres, let's say ps4s since they get a lot of praise here, change the brutal wheelhop in the wet?
This is my main gripe with the car, you just can't bring any amount of power down when it's wet.
Would it be wheelspin I'd be fine with that, but the wheelhop makes you think the car exploiding is imminent.
 

R Veloster N

Well-Known Member
Nthusiast
Mar 5, 2019
6,886
4,976
113
Rocky Mountains, US
This happened yesterday on M6 motorway. It was raining and the road was greasy, traffic was stop start.
After just getting going again I looked down to change music track when the car in front braked suddenly, I wasn't quick enough to react and skidded into him. I don't recall the ABS kicking in and didn't feel any judder through the pedal, it could just be that I didn't brake hard enough, but in the split second I am sure I jumped on the brakes hard.
Cars off for repair hopefully on Friday, in the mean time driving around looking a bit embarrassed ā˜¹
If that's the most you have is embarrassment, then you're doing alright. I'm happy it wasn't worse.:)šŸ‘
 
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Monty

Member
Nthusiast
Sep 19, 2018
37
46
18
lancashire
Yep. Only ~9k km, tyres still lookin good. thread gets a little low on the front outsides (still plenty, but noticeably less), will have them swapped with the next service. Alignment is ok. A bit strange since the amount of hard driving has been minimal.

Would other tyres, let's say ps4s since they get a lot of praise here, change the brutal wheelhop in the wet?
This is my main gripe with the car, you just can't bring any amount of power down when it's wet.
Would it be wheelspin I'd be fine with that, but the wheelhop makes you think the car exploiding is imminent.
My car is running PS4S like them a lot, for the wheel hop have you looked into lower torque mount bushes, forgot the nickname, you can pick from various stiffness I run the yellow work brilliant for me. Search on here sure there is a thread all about them. If I remember right think they are called dogbone bushes.
 
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